Sustainability Expert Sandra E. Taylor on her Most recent book, “Vines and Values: A Consumer’s Guide to Sustainable Wine”
I am so honored to have had the opportunity to interview wine author Sandra Taylor again, this time about her new book, “Vines and Values: A Consumer’s Guide to Sustainable Wine”. Sandra is an expert on sustainability going back decades to her Starbucks days, and in this book she does an amazing job of explaining and demystifying the concept of sustainability.
From the book’s description:
“Vines and Values: A Consumer’s Guide to Sustainable Wine offers a deeper understanding of wine and discusses how sustainable practices-organic, biodynamic, natural, and more-are applied in both the vineyard and in the winery. It shares how wine consumers can reduce their individual carbon footprint through wine choices, and it introduces a new sustainability rating system. Wine – WATCH ratings inform consumers where the wine they select fits on a continuum of environmental and social responsibility performance.”
Scroll down or click for a transcript of this interview.
I Helped with the wine style and Consumer’s guide portion of the book!
Like me, Sandra is a “Cork Dork” and someone I can talk to about wine for hours! She was so helpful when I was researching for my thesis paper on Sustainable Wine while completing my Wine & Spirit Trust Diploma. For this recent publication, I was able to repay the favor and help with the wine style and guide portion of the book.
It was a long process, starting with defining the style categories Sandra wanted to use. Then reviewing HUNDREDS of wines to make sure they were all categorized correctly and narrowing down a selection for the book. But what fun! I can’t tell you how excited I was when the hard cover book came in the mail!
Sandra Taylor Author Interview Transcript
Anne: “Hi, I’m Anne Arnold with From the Vine to Wine, and today I am so happy to have Sandra Taylor back. You should have hopefully seen an interview that I did a while back and now this is even more exciting. So just a little bit of background, when I was working on my diploma, my WSET diploma, and I was working on sustainability for my thesis, I came across Sandra’s book. I think it was actually after I saw her on a wine conference. And so the rest is history. And now I get to introduce a brand new book. Yay! We’ve been talking about this for quite a long time, this beautiful beautiful book, “Vines and Values: A Consumer’s Guide to Sustainable Wine”. And I am going to let Sandra tell you everything about it. I am so excited. Not only is it a beautiful book but it is so informative. So Sandra I know what inspired you, but can you tell our audience what made you want to write this wonderful book.”
Sandra: “Thank you very much. It’s such a pleasure to be with you again, and I appreciate the opportunity. You know when I wrote the first book, the first book really was designed for the wine industry. It’s like you know how to build, really, I won’t give the title, but it’s really how to build sustainability into the brand because, and I used examples outside the wine industry in that book, and notably the example from Starbucks where I had worked as chief sustainability officer. Almost as soon as that book came out I realized that what I really wanted to do was to write a book for consumers, you know. And I started out thinking about the wise consumer. Who’s the consumer who’s wise enough to take into account sustainability in their purchasing decisions, and at the same time, I was thinking about that the wine industry was really moving forward across the globe. There are sustainability certification programs in many different regions. There’s an adoption of biodynamic and organic, but I felt like it was really important for us to explain more to the consumer about what sustainability is, so that they would be motivated to purchase sustainably produced wines.”
Anne: “I have to say when I’m doing classes and events, and I mention sustainability, or people ask me about it, most people really don’t understand what that is. And so not even understanding it is even harder to find those wines. And so can you give just a quick little rundown of what sustainability is in wines, and why it makes a difference to the consumer?”
Sandra: “Yeah, I would say you know simply it’s a triple. I talk a lot about the triple bottom line. It’s the same across many sectors and many industries. It’s products that are environmentally responsible, socially responsible, and economically viable for the producer. So it’s a balance between the manufacturer or producer making money because that’s important, right? We can’t make a difference in the world if we don’t have any resources. But also obviously protecting the ecosystem, and you know water air energy use, and then of course, finally, social responsibility. You know, how are we treating workers, what’s the commitment we have to local communities, where we do business. And you know, I would say that’s true for any number of industries, but it’s especially important for agriculture, and even more important, I think, for the wine industry. I mean, how do we spray chemicals? Do we do that in a responsible way? You know, grapes are prone to disease. So organic requires no chemicals, but I think, for some, if you talk to some producers they’ll tell you, “I’ve got to do something because you know I’ve got to make money.” I’m in Virginia, uh Charlottesville, Virginia where it’s very humid, and I’m working with a handful of producers who want to be sustainable but find it difficult. So you know what or who want to be more environmentally responsible. They know that it’s hard to be organic. There’s only one certified organic producer in the entire Virginia wine industry. So sustainable is probably more likely an opportunity for them to produce their wine in a responsible way. And consumers really don’t understand all this biodynamic. You know, I was at a tasting the other night, and the first question I got was “What’s biodynamic?” You know because it’s confusing.”
Anne: “I was talking to someone yesterday in my class, and she’s like “I went to this place and they were like doing things because of the moon and I don’t understand.”
Sandra: “Right.”
Anne: “Yeah. There’s a lot there’s a lot of mystery, a lot of things that people don’t understand. But I think what’s great about the book is that you do explain that. And then you also are featuring so many of these different wineries and talking about what they’re doing, and then your wine WATCH concept. So let’s talk a little bit about that. So how you evaluated all these different producers.”
Sandra: “Yeah. Well there are… I think I reached out to thousands of producers, and we did a survey and the survey is an appendix in the book. The survey you know asked lots of questions about their production, about their involvement in the community, about their workers, and we translated the survey into Spanish and French. We figured English, Spanish, and French would capture the vast majority of wine producers around the world. Wine WATCH, I’ve been thinking about this for a few years as well because I hope that consumers will learn a lot about what is sustainable, what’s biodynamic, what’s organic in the book. But I know that a lot of people will still be a bit confused. And I thought, what we need are visual cues for consumers. You know, you walk into a wine shop, you ask the person at the register that you’re looking for a Rhone blend that is certified sustainable, and they may not know. So it’s not just for consumers. It’s also for people, for wine professionals as well. And so wine WATCH is a way for us to analyze. It’s a rating system basically. You know, I looked at you know Robert Parker’s 100 point system. Jancis Robinson has a 20 point system. There are a number of these kind of rating systems, but they’re about quality and it’s a subjective rating. So I know Jancis and I love you know her wine evaluations. Let’s put it that way. But it’s about quality. It’s about what she thinks are good tasting wines, and wines that will age well. I wanted a rating system for the sustainability practices of a winery. And WATCH – W is for what happens in the winery, and there’s a long list of criteria. A is agriculture, viticulture basically, but A because we wanted you know a nice acronym. T is for transparency and transportation which is really important when it comes to climate, and climate change, and climate impacts of wine production. That’s T. C is for certification. We, and I say we because there I have a little team that’s working on this. C, so we don’t absolutely require certification, but it’s a really good indication for us. We’ve looked at all the various certifications in wine regions, and can give some points for the certification. And then H is for humanity. So that’s the social community connection, worker treatment, those items. So wine WATCH, and each of those things that I’ve mentioned, each part of the acronym, we have we’re assigning scores, and we’re going to really evaluate lines based on those scores, and you know present that. As I say, I’m kind of looking at Robert Parker, and you know looked at how he started his wine rating system, and how that progressed. And so that’s kind of my guide as I go along. So we’ll do some reports, and eventually I’d like to have an app, a Wine WATCH app. I have an advisory committee that I’ve established, and it includes people from around the world who are giving me advice. And I’m also working with a group, Scientific Certification Systems, in California that I worked with when I was at Starbucks. And they helped me create, what we called “cafe practices”, which was a rating system for coffee, and Starbucks made a commitment to buy most of its coffee through the “cafe practices” program, and they accomplished that even after I left. So they’re helping me identify what’s the right way. We have a pilot project that we’re doing with just a couple of, with a handful of regions, but eventually this will be rolled out across the globe, and it will be an app, so that you’ll be able to pick up your phone, and get the Wine WATCH score for a specific wine. That’s the ultimate goal. We’re not there yet but we’re getting there.”
Anne: “But with the book, you can discover lots and lots of different wineries and producers, and get a feel for what they’re doing. So even if it isn’t necessarily a particular wine, you would know that, say it’s coming from… let’s see, the bag in the box. I love that one.”
Sandra: “Oh, yeah.”
Anne: “Tablas Creek, right? You would know that they are doing certain things. You’d be able to understand it. So really any of their wines, you’re not looking necessarily, like “Oh wow, their cab is so great!” You’re looking at, this entity is great. This is what they’re doing. This is what their sustainability rating is. These are their practices, their philosophies, so that you can choose which producers you want to purchase from based on what they’re doing.”
Sandra: “Yeah the book contains a large number of profiles of wineries, and the information it came to to us from the winery. You know, what are they doing in the vineyard, what are they doing in the winery, what are their commitments around sustainability, and what’s unique and special about what they’re doing. And we describe that. We have some beautiful images as well.”
Anne: “Oh yeah. There’s some great pictures.”
Sandra: “Yeah. But basically you know, I wanted people to be able to, rather than me saying, “Here’s what is sustainable or here’s what is biodynamic. Here’s what this particular winery…” You mentioned Tablas Creek, which is one of my favorites, and I actually am a member of the wine club, and I love their wines. They are in California, and they were the first winery in the US to be certified regenerative organic. So what are they doing you know, and how did they do this, and what motivated them to get there. The other thing that’s unique, that’s new in the book, and again, Tablas Creek is one of the examples, but it’s box wine. Because I had a wine importer say, “Well what’s new about this book?” And I should say, before I forget, that it really is directed at the consumer, and not so much the industry because the industry’s made amazing accomplishments when it comes to sustainability, let’s say over the last 10 to 15 years. From the time I wrote my first book, which was 2017, there’s been amazing progress across the globe, and in various regions by producers. But you know the thing that people most think about when they think sustainability, consumers that is, is climate change. So there is a chapter just on climate change, and the chapter on climate change looks at what can you do as a consumer to reduce your carbon footprint. And one thing you can do is to buy box wines. And so most Americans really still have a very negative attitude about box wines. So I researched. There’s a long list of them. I researched them, and I tasted them all, and they’re actually very good. So the ones that are listed are really good tasting wine. It’s great value when you think about how much a box contains versus, you know usually it’s probably the equivalent of two bottles, but it costs a lot less obviously than than two bottles and it lasts a lot longer. So yeah, so box wines is just one option… lighter weight bottles. There are any number of things that the consumer can do to help reduce our own, our environmental footprint. The industry is doing a lot of this. So we’re all in this together. And so that’s part of the goal – is to help consumers understand what they can do to make a difference.”
Anne: “Yeah I mean it is a great guide. I think one of the things, well I know, I love the different wines that you’ve got in here, but really I love the profiles of the different producers because I think that’s something. It’s hard for people to know, I mean you can go to a producer’s website, a winery’s website, but you don’t know. And this is a a great way for people, even just you know read this and understand what the concepts are. Go into a wine shop, and you see Tabas Creek, and go I know what their principles are. I know how they make the wine. It doesn’t matter if I’m having a red or a white from them or whatever. I know this is a good choice for me. So I think this is such a great tool for people who really want to be responsible with their consumption and support companies that are doing the right thing for the environment. And also I mean what’s your take on this, but some of these wines – sustainable wines, organic, biodynamic – may be better quality.”
Sandra: “Yeah. I do believe that. I’ve hesitated to say that over the years. But now I really do believe, I mean, I know when people say, “Well what’s this biodynamic thing?” You know, and it’s hard for people to grasp some of the practices, even some wine wine producers who study at UC Davis or Melier in France where they learn. It’s scientific, right? They learn a lot of biology and a lot the science. So it’s hard for scientists to get their heads around some of the biodynamic practices. But the proof is in the quality and the taste, and there’s some outstanding wines that are produced biodynamically and sustainably. So I think that you know if you pay more attention to the soil, if you pay more attention to you, maybe you spend more time, maybe the producers or the you know the vineyard manager spends more time in the vineyard. But the fact of the matter is that all of that attention ends up producing higher quality wines. I really believe that. Now that doesn’t say, I’m very careful in one chapter because the first chapter I talk about mass-produced wines versus sustainable wines. So I’m against mass-produced wines. Wines that have lots of additives so that they taste exactly the same, vintage after vintage. You go into the store you ask for a certain wine, you know it’s going to taste a certain way. And you know wine is an agricultural product, and you know things change, the weather changes from one year to the next. So it’s not always the same. And so collectors are excited about, for example, Bordeaux wines that change from one vintage to the next. And so I’m careful to say that even artisanal wines that maybe aren’t certified in any sustainable practice, they taste good because there’s a lot of attention that’s paid to the production. Of course I want them all to be sustainably produced, and I want consumers to buy sustainable wine. That’s the whole idea. You know I wrote the book for wine enthusiasts, so these are people who maybe already, maybe know more about wine than I do you know, or wine professionals, sommeliers, people who work in wine shops who know a lot about the wines that they’ve tasted or that they tasted to be examined on, or that they sell in their wine shop. But also for the average consumer. And I also researched and looked for wines that were not as expensive. I mean there are wines that are in… The final chapters of the book is organized by grape and taste profile. And there are wines for each of those grapes and taste profiles. And some of them are you know $100, $200 a bottle. But I wanted to find wines that were also some wines under $20. And many of the wines in the value wines chapter are under $8, which is really wonderful. But they’re all sustainably produced. And that’s the whole idea. We have this, I have a commitment to the future of the planet. And I want wine consumers to have that same commitment to maintaining the planet. And I know that for a lot of people this is all about climate change. And that’s okay. You know, I think we were concerned about water usage and treatment of workers long before people started, you know, thinking about climate, and that’s okay. So they’ll learn a lot about some of those other activities, but they’ll also learn about, you know, how they can support the wine industry that’s trying to do the right thing when it comes to climate change and sustainability.”
Anne: “Yeah absolutely. I do think it’s wonderful that you have that guide in the back, and that there are those value wines that are high quality. So it’s really, I mean, I think there’s a misconception that in order to be sustainable and you know socially conscious and things like that you have to pay more. And what the book is telling us is that you don’t. You just have to make good choices and educated choices.”
Sandra: “Absolutely. I mean Romany Kanti, which is probably the most expensive wine in the world… Burgundy. It’s sustainably produced!”
Anne: “But they’re also, it’s worth it!”
Sandra: “Yeah. But then, there’s a couple of wines from South Africa that are not as expensive, that are sustainably produced and taste really good. Some Chenin Blancs from Ken Forrester, Chenin Blanc. There are others, many others, and you’ll see lots of them described in the book. So you know, I think that we all have an opportunity from the wine collectors, down to the person who wants to take a really nice bottle of wine to a dinner party, and say to the hostess, “This wine is sustainably produced.” You know there’s all of that in the book, and I’m excited about what it provides for consumers.”
Anne: “I am so excited also. So let’s just talk a little bit before we finish. Beautiful beautiful book. Where can everyone find this?”
Sandra: “Well my publisher. I publish the book through Archway Publishing, which is a subsidiary of Simon & Schuster. So Archway Publishing, easy to find them online. Of course, Amazon, Barnes & Noble.com, Books-a-Million… There’s lots of opportunities to find the book. If you just Google “Vines and Values,” you’ll find it. If you go to my website, which is DiscoverSustainableWine.com or SandraeTaylor.com, you’ll find links that’ll help take you to where you can purchase the book.”
Anne: “And you can get it in different formats, right? Worthy of a hard cover.”
Sandra: “So it’s available as a hard cover. I think you have the hard cover there. It’s also available as soft cover which is also beautiful. And it’s available as an ebook which is under $10, as an ebook. Eventually, excuse me, Wine WATCH, which we talked a little bit about, will be an app and that will be available. You know people can pick it up on their phones. We’ve still got a ways to go to get that app up and running, but that’s the goal – is to find ways to make it easily accessible. But right now you can go to the book and find wines that fit your uh… And we do food pairings, tasting profiles and food pairings, for each of the wines in the final chapters. I think there’s about four chapters, five chapters at the end. And each wine that’s described, the winery is described, there’s a link to the website of the winery, there’s also information about the sustainable certification of the winery, and then I’ve selected a wine that I like for each of those wineries. And so you can find all of that in the book. And then there’s one chapter that’s just devoted to value wines. So if you are on a budget, as many of us are these days, you can find wines that are affordable, that are also high quality and sustainably produced.”
Anne: “Well I’m so excited for you. I’m so excited for everyone who’s going to benefit from this, and it’s actually a really great way also to try new wines. I mean there’s wines from all around the world with all different flavor profiles. So it’s actually a great way to branch out and explore.”
Sandra: “Yeah I have a good friend who travels a lot, and he’s already figured out which countries – you know he wants the book to help him identify wineries. I think he’s going to Germany this year, so he’s looking for German wines. And then I have a trip coming up to Spain, and so I’m you know looking at Spanish wine. So for travelers, this is a good guide for when you travel to wine regions outside the US. In South America, for example, there’s quite a few. You’ll find, you know, wineries that you might want to visit and taste the wines there. Even if you can’t find those wines in the United States.”
Anne: “It’s a great way to explore new places, new wineries, and actually then see exactly what they’re doing. I love the photos with like the sheep between the lines.”
Sandra: “Yeah it’s really, it’s been fun. It’s been quite a few years in the making because of the research, but it’s definitely… I’m excited for consumers to have this tool to help them be more environmentally responsible.”
Anne: “Thank you so much. So again the book “Vines and Values”.”
Sandra: “Yep, “A Consumer’s Guide to Sustainable Wine”
Anne: “Thank you!”
Sandra: “Thank you so much. It was a pleasure being with you.”
About Sandra Taylor
Sandra is a rock star in the world of Sustainable Wine. Please go to her website to learn more about her fascinating background: https://sandraetaylor.com/about-me/.
